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Joshua David Ling

transcripts

PAW4 – Ian Wilson

Joshua Ling

Joshua Ling 0:05
Today on poets at war, it is a manly episode with Ian Thomas Wilson, talking about the importance of Western archetypes, taking responsibility and martial arts, you are now entering the war zone. This is Oh at that wall

Joshua Ling 0:34
I’m not sure if we’ll do the show or not, of course, I record the whole thing and then decide what I put in. So it’s one of those things, it’s like, okay, whatever, you know, I’m basically an NF T is it’s called non fungible token. And it can be attached to a digital file. And basically, like, if you try to replicate that digital file, you can but the NFT does not go along with it. So essentially, it’s it’s certifying that this one is the original or this particular one, etc. And you’re actually able to sell it as a collectible. Does that make sense? Sure. It’s, it’s a form of crypto. It’s a form of cryptocurrency, that essentially when you create a digital file, if you do it with creative with an NF t, it will allow you to sell it as this is this file. It’s not a copy of a copy of a copy, right? Oh, okay, you see what I’m saying? And so a lot of art people are creating just like random pictures of cats and junk and selling them for 1000s of dollars. It’s it’s kind of ridiculous. But like the the art world, it’s a big thing right now, for obvious reasons. Like it’s you can own digital art, as opposed to just owning a copy of digital art, right? You can own the original export of someone’s art, you know what I’m saying? So, yeah, so yeah, okay, I

Ian Wilson 2:16
guess that makes

Joshua Ling 2:17
sense. Yeah, it does take a little bit of money up front for like processing and stuff like that, you can look up how to make an NFT. And you’ll find all kinds of answers, but it’s basically cryptocurrency. If the currency is a product a good you know, what I’m saying? Like a digital product or a good? So? Yeah, it’s a, it’s interesting that way, I’ve been looking into him a little bit, but haven’t made any concrete decisions. And it’s still very much in its infancy. One of the really cool things that I found out about it is the you can set your NFT so that every time it is sold, you get a royalty for as the or the originator of it. So basically, if someone sold a piece of your art, resold it for $100, and you set it to 10%, you would get 10 bucks out of that transaction. Oh, super. Yep. So but anyway, yeah. The, the podcasts we’re doing is very wide, open, casual, like, I record the whole thing and then just decide where I’m gonna start basically. And the, the main stuff we’re going to be getting into is kind of the at least the general theme of what we’re getting into is the idea of where what you do are with art, truth, beauty, etc, and how that all fits into the culture war. And, and that sort of thing. So why don’t you introduce yourself and just talk about what it is you do.

Ian Wilson 4:10
Alright, my name is Ian Wilson and I am a chronic I guess you’d call it like, you’d say I didn’t know what to do with my life. I’m a comic artist and writer. I’ve done Bible illustrations I’ve done I have an ongoing comic book project called legend at the sword Bear WHAT webcomic project. I written a couple of novellas. First one being a song of amorous and the second one is the sort of amorous which is that’s going that’s in the process of being rewritten right now. Because I realised, after a couple people had read it and said, you know, you made some mistakes here and there. So I had to go and basically reword everything from the ground up. And so it’s getting Greek. That’s getting re released. The first of October.

Joshua Ling 5:24
Cool. So what are your stories about? Like, what’s the what’s the theme? You know, sort of a thing that you’re going with all those?

Ian Wilson 5:35
Well, the amorous stories are about King amorous who was a, he was a historical king, he actually existed, as far as anyone can tell. In the fifth century, he was the uncle of King Arthur. And he was the first high Kingdom of England. And he had has these adventures that nobody actually talks about. Nobody wrote hardly anything about him. So I’m basically making up mythology as I go along. Because there’s there’s nothing there. I mean, he fought some battles against the Saxons, they did some cool magic tricks. And then that’s, that’s it, he disappears

Ian Wilson 6:20
from the record. Yeah, that’s interesting. And I,

Ian Wilson 6:23
I thought, you know, it’d be nice. If there were more stories

Joshua Ling 6:27
about him. For sure. Yeah. The thing that I really like about those, you know, I’m going through and recording the audio books for you. The, the thing that was that really struck me with these is they feel very, very fast paced, they feel adventurous, they remind me of like, if if a King Arthur sort of thing met sort of an Indiana Jones, sort of vibe, some of the humour in Bertoia reminded me a lot of Indiana Jones. Very action based humour, so I really appreciate that.

Ian Wilson 7:04
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was pretty heavily influenced by Indiana Jones and things like that as a kid. So that was, that was one of the things I wanted there.

Joshua Ling 7:18
Yeah, totally. So what are some of the other projects you’re involved with? I know, logo. Sophia. Sarah mentioned you in the podcast. Want to tell people what you do for logo Sophia?

Ian Wilson 7:34
Um, it’s hard to describe. Well, I do I did. For logo Sophia. I’m the assistant editor. I don’t think of the word there for a minute. I’m the Assistant Editor of logo, Sophia, I run the Twitter. For logo, Sophia, I pretty much run the Facebook page. I don’t. Sarah still does a lot of things with that. But I’m basically in charge of making sure that the posts go out when they should. As far as the website goes, I don’t really do much for the website. Aside from contributing the odd short story here in there, that’s the other project I’m working on. I’ll get to that later. I gotcha. But that’s what I do for logos via

Joshua Ling 8:27
Yeah. So um, what what do you see? You know, I’ve basically like, why do you write these works? Why do you draw the comics? You know, you mentioned kind of this idea of, you’ve always been looking for something to do. But like, what, what are some of the things that make you think that this is a worthwhile adventure, adventure and investment and what you do? And and what generally speaking, like, tell, tell them about like your plans? Where’s where is this all going? What’s the purpose?

Ian Wilson 9:06
So my plans right now, as it stands, part of the reason I do this is because we’re in an age where there are so many so many, so many books being produced by people really don’t know what they’re doing. And I’m not going to claim that no one doing reading read, obviously, I had to rewrite the entire novella from the ground up. And there are all these books being produced. And they all have basically the same sorts of themes. Now I have no problem with the hero’s journey. I think it’s a great archetype to work off of. But once you’ve done it a few 100 million different times, and is all just very variations on a theme. The way I look at it, people are thirsting for adventure, and they’re drowning in all this content. That may or may not be what they’re looking for, you know, you have these people that are, quote, unquote, subverting tropes. Well, tropes exist for a reason. tropes have a cultural purpose to serve. So, you know, one of the tropes I that I like the best is that the idea of a ideal King, somebody who is not necessarily perfect, but someone who’s going to do what’s necessary to save the kingdom. So you have characters like King Arthur, they’re highly important culturally, especially in Western culture, but to a lesser extent in the east. It’s really, really important to keep those traditions alive. And well, a lot of fantasy authors. Nowadays, I don’t see a lot of them doing that. They’re too busy trying to be original, rather than actually producing good art that people actually want to read. So I went back and I looked at, I read John Carter of Mars, I read Conan the Barbarian, I read all of the old pulp heroes that were really popular in the 1920s, and 1930s. And they all seem to have these certain features in common. We have these men that are not necessarily like buff jocks, but are men of action and adventure, who are going to do what’s necessary to protect the people they love. And they’re always they’re always gentlemen, they’re always kind to women. And they take care of the people that they love. And sometimes they do things out of selfish ambition, and sometimes to do things to help people. And I wanted to bring back that type of hero. Now there, I found out from Twitter that there are other authors out there who are basically doing the same thing that I’m doing. But they’re not as well known as I think that they should be. Ideally, I would like to do a four part series with amorous and then I’m going to move on to Luther, and do probably a three part series with him. And then not sure exactly what I’m going to do after that with the Camelot idea. I don’t know if I’m going to produce more Camelot theme books after that. I don’t know if I’m going to do more legend of the sword bearer stuff. I may move into something different. But we’ll see.

Joshua Ling 13:10
Yeah, that sounds great. So one of the things that that really kind of stuck with me there what you were talking about the idea of the person who does what it takes who takes care of his people who isn’t perfect, but tries his hardest all the time? And, yeah, yeah, the the whole Shades of Grey thing I remember you mentioning something like that on Facebook, people talking about writing in shades of grey, and always trying to have a very flawed hero as opposed to a partially flawed hero or something of that nature. I think that that’s one of the reasons, you know, there was such a, you know, there’s a certain group of people who want this. And a lot of people downplay that group, because they believe that group is dying out when in fact, they’re actually slowly growing again. Yeah, but that’s one of the reasons I think so many people latched on to Captain America in the Marvel movies. He is very anachronistic and specific in his philosophy of fighting. And I think that, you know, I think some people latched on to it too much and didn’t give enough credence to another hero who was that way in the beginning and that was Thor. Um, but, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting to me how certain people at the right times find these not necessarily tropes, but these patterns that have been slowly dying from fiction, and how they begin to bring them back the one that I’m particularly fond of I have found out through a lot of searching is is the idea of essentially, a, an imperfect. And this one’s resonating a lot with people my age right now, an imperfect father figure who still very, very, very much loved his kids. And the, the damage that has been done is undone by the good that was done in the first place that the kid didn’t even know about. I find that trope to be something particularly strong and even though it’s overused in a lot of cases currently. I think there’s more there that people aren’t delving into. What, in your opinion, is the epitome of this kind of hero you’re talking about that you’re talking about specifically in? In, you know, you mentioned some of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, if I remember correctly, and John Carter of Mars and things of that nature, what is like this is this is exactly what I’m going for, like the closest thing you can say to the epitome.

Ian Wilson 16:13
Oh, boy, it would either be John Carter of Mars, or called the conqueror. Hmm.

Joshua Ling 16:21
I’m not as familiar with cold. People want to go to go into him.

Ian Wilson 16:27
None of the people are familiar with him. I mean, he was he’s primarily associated with Kevin Sorbo movie in the 90s. But he was actually Robert E. Howard, who created Conan the Barbarian he created called the Conqueror first. And Cole was this character. I don’t know a whole lot about his backstory, but he was a barbarian, like Conan the Barbarian. Basically, Atlantis fell, and the survivors returned to barbarism. And Carl is one of those people, one of the surviving Atlanteans, who worked his way up from literally nothing, and became the king of the empire. He became the emperor. And he was incredibly savage in battle. But when somebody was in danger, you know, he was right there. He was gonna do whatever it took, there was a slave girl who had fallen in love with this noble, this nobleman, and they couldn’t get married because the law said they couldn’t get married. And Cole was so irritated by the fact that he lived in a reality where he was restricted by ancient laws written by fools in his opinion, that he just took the tablets of the law and hit them with an axe and shattered them to pieces.

Joshua Ling 18:09
That, yeah, I can see that that is. It’s a very specific kind of person who kind of says, a screw through the tradition, we need to do what’s right. That seems to be kind of what you’re getting at with that. Yeah. And I can see that in your work. So what is your hope to accomplish with this work, obviously selling it and making money and I even want to go into a discount that I really don’t. You laugh, but like so many people discount that as a noble goal. The fact is, it is noble if you’re trying to take care of eating, eating is a noble goal. Exactly. It’s extremely noble. So I don’t want to discount that. And I want I want people to support folks like you and the other people have on this podcast, and especially if they sent they think this works. Sounds interesting. But like, what, showing this person in a story showing this archetype in a story, what does what are you hoping for it to accomplish within the culture war that we see going on today?

Ian Wilson 19:18
Well, I want to give young men in particular positive role models. You know, my grandfather’s generation, they had Tarzan and my grandfather was a big fan. Tarzan, my dad was a big fan of Tarzan. And that gave them a positive role model. Because he, despite the fact that he was raised by apes, he treated people with respect. You know, he was always respectful to ladies and but if you crossed him, you know, haven’t helped you. And I want young men who are Zoomers and the next generation coming up to have male role models. Whether they can say, you know, I’m not going to treat women like that. I’m not going to be a savage to women. I’m going to defend my family. I’m going to put food on the table of so that I can, you know, and just be masculine without being a muscle head. You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely.

Joshua Ling 20:27
I think that there’s, you know, so many people equate. I even saw a tweet. Recently, someone had said, and someone refuted them. The idea that some some literary person was saying to a commenting on some fitness guy’s picture, that, Oh, every single one of those veins on your arm is 10 is 100 books you haven’t read or something like that. And I’m like, that’s a really reductionist idea of times stupid, extremely stupid. And the guy got refuted big time. But yeah, that’s something that I really see as people want to, especially in the culture war, especially from the Marxist circles and things of that nature, people. We even see it in our fiction, people want to be put into factions people want to associate with this faction, or that faction in this faction is my idea. Yeah. Right. And what you’re advocating for really is a mould breaker. Someone who uses the hand that he’s dealt, like a, like a great western trope, you know, whatever hand he’s dealt, he’s still the fastest gun in the West. Right? Like, that’s, that’s kind of the thing. So I, I think that comes correct me if I’m wrong from a little bit of who you are, and the way you’ve been brought up, do you want to go into that a little bit, and just kind of give people a background on who you are? Sure.

Ian Wilson 22:03
Yeah. So my dad, my dad is one of those people who was physically extremely strong. I mean, I’ve seen him move some really heavy stuff. And you know, you look at him, and he’s got arms like a gorilla. I’m not even kidding. So he re just finished. Just finished Dracula, and now he’s about halfway through Frankenstein. He’s read more books than I ever have. Granted, he’s my father. So he’s significantly older. You know, by the time he was my he had written or read hundreds and hundreds of books. And you can, you can be intellectual, and still be physically strong, you can be intellectual and still be physically fit. And a lot of the people that I run to run into at Comic Cons and whatnot. They don’t do that. For whatever reason, they think that if you’re a nerd, then you have to be nerdly. You can’t go to the gym. You can’t do this. You can’t you can’t be a jock. And I’m just like, No, you can read comic books and still play football. You can read comic books and still still do karate? I certainly do. I’ve been doing karate for seven years. So he instilled in me a love of high action literature. And a love of fitness. Yeah, teenager I was that was that was a bit more difficult because I was strong headed and I wanted to do my own thing. He just kind of said, Okay, fine, do whatever you want. But you know, it caught on later. Pardon me? Yeah, definitely. So you know, I turned when I turned 21 And I just got fired from my first real nine to five job at the YMCA. I’m not going to get into that because that’s that’s water under the bridge now. Actually, no, I am going to get it. Let’s go. So as I look back now, this is seven years since I’ve been fired from the why they look back now I realised that there were hundreds of situations that were I put in them again, I will handle completely differently. I had no idea what I was doing. Nobody trained me. I didn’t know what exactly they expected. Me expect me to do what was your job and there were a lot of times, I was just basically glorified home monitor. I gotcha. I was just there to make sure that the kids didn’t do anything dangerous, and that they were entertained. I was a high paid babysitter, basically, I’m following Yeah. There were lots of lots of times when I just went, why? Why are they allowed to do this? And, you know, they, if they had a sob story, sob story bad enough, then the director would just get let them get away with murder, essentially. And there were a lot of things that I did that I look back and think, Ooh, boy, I would not do that again. And I could have gotten in a lot of trouble for doing that. You know, nothing criminal. Right. You know what I mean? But I understand why they fired me now, because I was not cut out for that job at all.

Joshua Ling 26:08
You had to learn German archetype you were looking for?

Ian Wilson 26:12
Yeah, exactly. I was fired. And I was mad. And Dad said, why don’t you go to karate class? And I said, No. And Dad said, Fine. I’ll I’ll take you to the karate class. And you can look, you can watch and decide if you want to do it. So I watched, and I decided, okay, yeah, I’ll do this. And that’s how I got involved with martial arts. I gotcha. I’ve been doing that. I’ve been doing that week in week out. Almost non stop for seven years. I mean, the last last year, there was no crime class. So because the world is

Joshua Ling 26:53
fantastic. I know. There’s Yeah, I know, there’s I know, there’s been, there’s there’s different, you know, groups and variants and whatever else and I don’t know near enough about karate to understand it. But what level belt? Are you and how does that fit into your hierarchy? Well, if you do belts,

Ian Wilson 27:18
we do we do do belts. In my previous school now, I changed schools a couple years ago. That’s another story that I’m definitely not going to get into. You’re not gonna have time.

Joshua Ling 27:28
I’ve had my own martial arts. There’s so much drama there.

Ian Wilson 27:33
Yeah, well, okay. So there was some drama, I ended up leaving that school. And that school, it went white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown, black. And that’s how it is in the school that I’m currently in. I’m a black belt. First Degree. I have to train for a while in my current school, and then I’m going to test in, in which case, I’ll be a black belt first degree again. I gotcha. Because I had to, I have to become part of their hierarchy. And there’s a process for become going for a black belt in one school, to a black belt in another school that makes my black belt, fortunately, but I just I have to test in.

Joshua Ling 28:20
That makes sense. That makes sense.

Ian Wilson 28:22
That’s gonna be a nightmare.

Joshua Ling 28:24
Yeah, yeah. I can imagine. I can imagine. Yep. That might as well tell you you because this is a conversation, you’d be interested in this. I did. I did jiu jitsu for a short while because I was fascinated by both professional wrestling and the older form catch wrestling, which is professional wrestling back before you know when it was real. And so, which I’m not saying that pro wrestling isn’t real in that it’s very severe on the body, obviously. But because like I actually I actually trained in both the the jujitsu was out of necessity, because the only way I could learn any catch wrestling was the internet and my brothers and jujitsu was the next closest thing. So okay. So I go and I do jujitsu. And we had a whole issue where essentially, I was sort of kind of pressured out, in a way out of out of coming to class, because I was framed as a bully, because of the way that I wrestle, you know, the way that I that I grappled, particularly the use of leg locks at all in any beginners situations. Now, keep in mind, I had been trained by training, self trained in catch wrestling and trained in pro wrestling quite a bit. For about three, four or five Here’s something like that. And I knew how to hurt person and not hurt a person, especially because of the pro wrestling, you know? And they, they kind of know that they kind of don’t care. You know, it’s one of those things because they’re their own group of fighter, you know, they do their own style. And so, yeah, the couple times I tried to like lock one time, it was on someone much smaller because we didn’t have enough people to roll. And I had a parent as well as the teacher. Just like immediately jump on me like physically, because I was going for a very benign Yeah. And this was like, the first time it wasn’t like a second time or something like that, you know, but yeah,

Ian Wilson 30:51
yeah. It’s not unlike what happened to me. I, we were supposed to be doing. I don’t know how to explain this kata in karate is. Yeah, you can can explain. Well, yeah, you know, yeah. Explain. Kata is, is a sequence of movements that simulate combat. We train in kata for a lot of different reasons. I’m not going to get into all all that you can look it up yourself for why people do kata their people do kata for their own reasons. Anyway, we were supposed to be doing kata, the we being the black belts. And the Sensei, his wife kept stopping and talking to one of her best friends. I was getting exasperated, you know, and I was already kind of in a poor mood that day. And she finally had, and she chewed me out in front of all the black belts. Okay, yeah. And basically, I decided that I wasn’t going to go back because I was so yes. Utterly humiliated. Yeah. And so I switched dojos. And this one, this one has more of a professional atmosphere, I guess I would say there’s a greater sense of professionalism.

Joshua Ling 32:26
Right. Well, that’s, that’s one of those things, you know, they’re there. I think people have value safety so much in our society today. Or at least the illusion of safety, that they don’t have a strong idea of why they’ve valued the thing beyond the safety, like the thing that is kept safe. You know,

Ian Wilson 33:00
that’s an interesting thought. Yeah,

Joshua Ling 33:02
basically, the idea that, like, I’m more concerned about the safe in which I put my gold than I am about the gold itself. It’s, it’s these procedures and things that we do in life, especially in things like the combat, you know, like I’m talking about, we’re so afraid of mass crazy, scary injuries, that we don’t even come anywhere close to seeing where those could happen. You know, we want to stay absolutely as far away as possible, the way our society has dealt with, you know, justice in the justice system, you can sue for slipping on the floor at Walmart, and things of that nature. It’s like, there’s no response, personal responsibility, you know what I’m saying?

Ian Wilson 33:56
Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s the other thing. Taking responsibility for yourself. Is you know, don’t make me Don’t ask me to take responsibility for other people. I’m not about that.

Joshua Ling 34:09
And then taking responsibility. It’s sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt. I was just saying and taking responsibility for everything that like, doesn’t even have hasn’t even happened. Something that could have happened like that’s what they want. They want you to take responsibility for things that haven’t even happened. But like,

Ian Wilson 34:29
thought crime, yeah, cry.

Joshua Ling 34:30
It’s crazy. You

Ian Wilson 34:31
better take responsibility for yourself. You know, I’m certainly not gonna do it for you.

Joshua Ling 34:37
Right?

Ian Wilson 34:38
Right. That’s that’s why I like oh, let me think this name. It’s completely gone. Now. I can see his face in my head. He’s a he has a radio show.

Joshua Ling 35:00
Does the conservative talk radio or don’t go like? Okay, gotcha.

Ian Wilson 35:04
Giacobbe. I think that’s what I like him because he’s about radical responsibility. If some if somebody on your team screws up that’s on you, because you didn’t communicate clearly,

Joshua Ling 35:17
right?

Ian Wilson 35:18
Yep. And he was, he was a seal. So yeah, he knows all about that.

Joshua Ling 35:23
And this connects to everything you’re saying about this? This archetype, right? Like this archetype of a man. Yes. Take responsibility for his people, you.

Ian Wilson 35:33
You take responsibility for yourself.

Joshua Ling 35:39
So you and your sister have done I mean, not as many lately, but you you go to cons, you do all sorts of things. Why don’t you give us a brief introduction to your sister and what you guys partner on? The I know that I’m gonna have her on later. And I’ll let her do more of the explaining on her stuff. But like, you both kind of grew up doing art together, right? You want to go into that a little bit?

Ian Wilson 36:07
Pretty much pretty much. My sister writes. I guess you call them urban fantasy stories, where she has modern, you know, modern American normal people alongside elves and dwarves and other magical creatures. And they all sort of live together in the same environment. And I find it fairly interesting myself. And what I do for her is I basically do the illustrations for it. Her stories are illustrated, I do that. And that’s pretty much all I have to say.

Joshua Ling 36:54
Well leave the rest for her. Her name is TK. Tamra, right. And, yeah, she’s pretty awesome at what she does, too. You guys are a talented family. I’m so if people are, you know, wanting to get a hold of your art I know a podcast is especially audio podcast isn’t going to be able to show what kind of art you have. But like, if people want to see or where can they go to? And can you describe your art a little bit just to give you like your approach to what you do, artistically.

Ian Wilson 37:32
So as far as my art is concerned, I pull from a lot of artistic influence. My main influence would probably be Jack Kirby, who was the main artists for Marvel Comics in the 60s and early 70s. Another other influences include John schema, I hope I’m pronouncing that name right. Couple of other artists from the Silver and Gold Age comics, Eric J, I get a lot of my ideas from LJ Mobius, I really liked Mobius his artwork, just some of the way that he was able to portray shapes so that they look, they look three dimensional, they look round, like you could touch them and feel them and they would almost look like you could reach into his illustrations and feel them. Yeah. And I try. I’m trying to kind of do that with my own artwork. And so I’m learning a lot from him. But my art is, my art is sort of a combination of all of those things. It’s kind of evolving right now. Because I I’ve been learning more about comic art and how to make shapes look for three dimensional.

Joshua Ling 39:07
Gotcha. Yep, that’s from what I hear one of the hardest parts I do is weird digital painting thing. And it’s like, okay, well, I’m just gonna get it as good as it gets. But go ahead.

Ian Wilson 39:21
Yeah, is is very difficult. It’s something that I’ve struggled with for years of my life. And I look at some of my older artwork for like, Legend of the sword bear stuff that I have already published. And think, you know, I could have done that a lot better. But that was five years ago when I started that project. Exactly. I’ve learned a lot in five years.

Joshua Ling 39:46
Yeah, definitely. Um, we didn’t touch a lot on this on faith. I know you consider yourself reformed Catholic, and have a few interesting You know, you’re not Roman, but you’re Protestant, to the extent but you’re also, you know, kind of all over the place. You’ve always been somewhat of a searcher from what I understand, you know, reading the Scripture, figuring things out, you want to go back into your background and how your faith has affected the way you look at art and that sort of thing.

Ian Wilson 40:22
Well, I started out as a Southern Baptist, and they don’t really do art work, just in general, is not a thing for them. If you not visual artwork, if you’re if you play guitar, or piano or organ or something, you know, they are all over you. But if you draw pictures, you know, they just kind of put you in a corner and give you a crayon. That’s pretty much how they treat that. And I’m not mad at them. I’m not bitter about it. It just it is what it is. Right? So I went, I went from there, and we started going to Congregational Church. Now a congregational church, for a lot of people don’t realise what that is. I’m finding out that there are so many people out there that don’t know what congregational means, right? They were started in Britain, by people that didn’t agree with the Church of England, but also weren’t necessarily Presbyterian. They were known as non conformists, right. And they moved to the United States on board the Mayflower and those famous ships that we read about, and they started the Massachusetts Bay Colony and places like that. And that’s where puritanism came out of now. They they were started, they were congregational churches started all over New England,

Joshua Ling 42:02
American Platonism. Anyway,

Ian Wilson 42:04
American American puritanism all over New England, they started these these congregational churches, a lot of them are unfortunately Unitarian Universalists now, because of some stuff that happened in I don’t know, the 19th century,

Joshua Ling 42:24
the spiritual ism.

Ian Wilson 42:27
Yeah, the spiritual ism movement that that took place there. I’m not sure exactly what all happened. But they kind of became disillusioned with Congregationalism they, they became disillusioned with reformed Christianity. The base basically, they gave, they gave up on on God, essentially. So they started worshipping a God of their own making, for all intents and purposes, and so that’s where I go to church and they had a building, the building is absolutely gorgeous. Inside and out, it is a huge stone building. You go inside, it’s got stained glass windows with pictures of the apostles and Jesus Christ, and Mary and other people from the history of Christianity in in the windows, and you just feel like you’re in a little bit of heaven on earth. And finally, my artistic abilities seem to be respected.

Joshua Ling 43:38
Hmm, yeah. So that’s, you go to a cotton creationist Russia are there and I’m not trying to get you in any any weirdness with them in any kind of way. But like, what are the big tenants of you your faith doctrinally that have driven your art and where you are now? theologically, etc.

Ian Wilson 44:01
So by Congregational Church, he’s really, really old. And a lot of the people that are that go there now, we’re going there in the 1940s. And the 50s. It’s kind of it’s kind of ageing out, unfortunately,

Joshua Ling 44:18
not so many churches now. Yeah, that’s,

Ian Wilson 44:21
that’s a discussion for another time. But the the issue is, technically speaking, our church holds to the Westminster Confession of Faith. That’s what it says in our Constitution. That’s what it says in our founding documents. Unfortunately, a lot of people that go to the church don’t believe in that. Right. So that kind of informs my my own faith and practice. I went through a, a wandering period over the past, I don’t know three years, where I was looking at different church traditions. You know what? These people are interesting. What do they believe? Oh, look, they got big long beards, what do they believe? And just doing lots of research on different church backgrounds. I I flirted with Catholicism for a while, I was very, very interested in Lutheranism. Eventually, I came back to First Congregational, even though I never actually left. Right. I, I started came back to that. Because I felt like I didn’t have anywhere else to go. Like, God was saying, you know, I put you in this church for a reason. Yes. And I want you to do as much good here as you can, and don’t go looking around anywhere else right now.

Joshua Ling 45:53
Yes, definitely. So what is I mean, not from a CRT perspective, where the victim gets to say all they want to say, but but but what are your thoughts and opinions on how elders in particular have churches, you know, people who are actually in control and power and authority over the, the congregation? How should they be dealing with a crazy weird artists person, not just visual art, but someone who is constantly, you know, I’m joking and being hyperbolic here, but here’s the voices and follows them.

Ian Wilson 46:42
Um, be patient. You have to be patient with artistic people, you have to, you have to kind of let them have their own head. And they have ideas, they have lots of ideas, they have ideas flowing in their, into their head every day. And you they can give you those ideas, but you have to ask, because they’re not just going to blurt them out, because in a lot of cases, when they did, blurt out those ideas, they were kind of shouted down or told that they were irrelevant. But they were bad ideas and what have you. So you have to take advantage of that brain. Because they artistic people have great brains. Take advantage of that. Ask them questions about what they want to do. In the church, or if your church is trying to start a ministry, you have to go to the artistic person, the weird, wild haired guy, and say, Do you have any opinions about this? Do you have any ideas of about how you want? How you think we should go about this? Or do you think that this is this ministry is a terrible idea. And encourage them to speak their mind, because a lot of times artists are very polite, and they aren’t necessarily not polite. Nice, they aren’t necessarily going to tell you exactly what they think. Because they don’t want to hurt your feelings. They’re looking for acceptance. And a lot of times they moved around from congregation to congregation not finding the acceptance that they’re looking for. So you have to be sensitive to that. And listen, and know and don’t interrupt them. And don’t try to tell them that’s a terrible idea or, or what have you. And don’t, don’t give artistic people suggestions on what they should do. I was told over and over again, that I should do gospel tracks to do illustrations for gospel tracks. And the more they told me to do illustrations for gospel tracks, the less I wanted to do it. Yeah, just don’t don’t give them suggestions. Let them come up with their own ideas, because that’s what they’re good at.

Joshua Ling 49:31
Yep. I think I’ll add to that, too. If you don’t like their ideas, you’re the one who’s the elder. You don’t have to use them. You know, I think it’s less for an artist about having themselves utilised or their ideas utilised, even though that’s a part of it. That’s something that they eventually want to get to. Just knowing, loving and trying to understand. Just like most humans That’s the first foremost thing. And I’m not trying to put people in different camps here, like we were talking about at the beginning, I think everyone has an artistic quality to them, no matter what level they’re at. Everyone has ideas, like you were saying everyone has these sorts of things. It’s just, you know, we don’t need to be putting someone in an elite category. But at the same time, we do need to acknowledge that this is a person with ideas and thoughts and stories or songs or whatever that they have, and, and try to utilise them to the glory of the kingdom of God. You know, my pastor uses the term making and maturing disciples. That’s, that’s his job. And yeah, never

Ian Wilson 50:45
sometimes, yeah, go ahead. Some, and sometimes they need a little encouragement to do what, what the Lord has for them to do, because a lot of times, people writers, in particular, are very good at writing, sermons, for example. And they might be looking for somebody to tell them, hey, you should become you should get some theological education. And then you could be a, I don’t know.

Ian Wilson 51:26
You’re in your church, you have elders. Right. Right. And they’re, and they’re the ones that are allowed to preach.

Joshua Ling 51:33
Not exactly there is a day, there is a difference between a ruling and a preaching elder. And that is just basically like a preaching elder is definitely 100% paid. And they are given over to the work. Some elders or ruling elders are paid to, but like a preaching elder has to be paid. And he has to be like, his primary job is being in the word, as opposed to the shepherding, and that sorts of other thing, that doesn’t mean that they don’t do that, too. And it doesn’t mean that a ruling elder never teaches, but preaching is teaching the word with passion. And with with, you know, definite purpose toward the word, so.

Ian Wilson 52:19
Okay, yeah, well, in Congregationalism, were a bit more open with that, basically, anyone who is who has some form of theological education is allowed to preach, right? And that’s at the discretion of the pastor and the deacons who gets to preach and who doesn’t, right. So we can we can elect someone to be a preacher.

Joshua Ling 52:47
Well, we’re, like I said, that can happen, that can happen. But there’s a there’s a distinction made between like, this is the guy whose job it is to do this, versus here’s the guy filling in, you know what I’m saying?

Ian Wilson 53:00
Yeah, so, with writers in particular, you can make use of that you can walk up to them and say, Hey, you have you have a lot of theological insight I want you to preach on us and such a date. I’m going to be out of town. That’s basically what my pastor said to me, not that long ago.

Joshua Ling 53:24
Right? Right. And even if it’s not preaching, teaching Sunday school, there, you know, there’s so many different places where these things could happen. And it doesn’t even have to be in the realm of teaching, but people who are already creative, there’s so many things outside of the standard sort of thing. I’m actually working currently with my pastor on pre production for an audio drama that we’re going to be chopping around to various radio stations and that sort of thing to just have our name connected to it, you know, just as a as a, a public relations. Here’s, here’s a story. It has, you know, good Christian morals in it, but it’s, you know, it’s a good story. And, you know, that’s, that’s what we’re working on. So it doesn’t even have to be something directly connected with liturgy. There’s so many things that the church can do, you know, all of Christ for all of life, as Abraham Kuyper would say, right, like, there’s, there’s so much work that an artist can do. And I don’t want anyone who’s listening to think that this guy’s really good, but like he’s kind of weird. How can I fit him now to worry about fitting him in working work on finding where he fits in the world and help him with that. And then the rest will make itself work out. You know, if he’s in the world, and in the church, there’s going to be connection there and you can find that that connective tissue pretty easily. Honestly, you know, I think people just don’t know Think outside the box. They don’t want to listen to other folks that think outside the box. And so it’s like, okay, well, you know. But anyway, we’ve rambled on a good bit, I want to know where people can find you on the internet, especially if they want to connect and become friends and all that stuff, but also just you know, where they can find your work. And, guys, he’s a really great artist, and he needs commissions. So listen up closely. Go ahead.

Ian Wilson 55:31
Yep, definitely the money. Oh, the primary place where you can contact me is on my wonderful website that Joshua made for me and Thomas Wilson calm. And there’s my Twitter. The Great Scott great with an eight gr eight Scott on Twitter, Facebook, I’m Great Scott with an exclamation point productions and they have another website. I can’t remember off the top of my

Joshua Ling 56:09
legends and song was not we believe

Ian Wilson 56:11
that song.weebly.com That’s it. So those are the places where you can contact me and see my artwork and buy my books, buy my books, please.

Joshua Ling 56:23
His books are really awesome, y’all. I’m telling you. And the audio book. I’m hoping to have out for the Christmas season for sure. Completely and totally ready. So if you’re looking for a good novella, length audio book, that’s our collaboration together with the song a song of amorous so and thanks and everybody who’s listening. Remember Christians you’re a part of the culture wars, whether you like it or not, you are part of God’s army, whether you like it or not time to stand up and to draw right and sing for God’s glory. Let’s march into battle.

Joshua Ling 57:07
tradie once Ciao ciao.

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